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epicurean paradox rebuttal

Besides giving them a chance to change, it also could cause harm to many of the people already here. If you seek to understand the truth, then go to http://gracethrufaith.com/ and begin your studies. 3. I'll leave you with a quote of my own ... “Our destiny is not determined for us, but it is determined by us. Change ), You are commenting using your Twitter account. Yes. “24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. The Bible teaches that evil resulted from the Fall when humanity chose to reject God. The only fault in Epicurius’ statement above is his last statement, “why call him God”. This is the assumption made and seldom extends beyond an assumption. This empty space, then, is a void. Epicurus' argument considers the standard that a god is omnipotent and good, while evil still exists in the world: "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Why not use Norse Legends as proof? 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. 2 issues with this idea that free will is the answer. Change ), You are commenting using your Facebook account. Spending eternity in Hell is not the penalty for our sins, it’s the consequence of being unable to pay the penalty. To sum up part of the argumentation there, if you made a piece of pottery for your own purposes, don't you have the natural right to do with it what you want? (Jeremiah 17:9) This of course resulted in their deaths just as God had warned them. Is he able, but not willing? In fact, apologists have argued that the philosophical naturalism of the atheist cannot account for objective morality or for good and evil, which undercuts the argument itself. He cannot be truly just without being truly loving. Therefore people don’t go to Hell to pay the penalty for their sins. Re: The Epicurean paradox Post by Empty Lord » Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:36 am Okay, so i'll post a direct reply to all the unanswered replies later on tomorrow, half asleep so i'll just make a … Where then did the weeds come from?’ Lives of Eminent Philosophers, a compilation ofinformation on the lives and doctrines of the philosophers ofclassical Greece (see “Doxography of AncientPhilosophy”). Christians will also respond that given biblical revelation it is clear that God will one day be the one to rid the world of evil and suffering. I love how you were able to draw out the inconsistancy within the atheistic worldview in order to show the arbitrariness of the epicurean claim. Even atheist philosophers have conceded that objective good and evil do not exist on atheism, for philosophical naturalism does not allow it. The question is why? They are only a few days old or so by the time they eat the fruit of knowledge, an evil serpent tricked Eve into eating it, and they could not even conceive of the concept of evil without eating the fruit in the first place. No. ( Log Out /  actually, that is exactly what Epicurus and atheist are pointing. Death; Afterlife. Available. Paul’s point was that they would succeed in spreading the message and joy of the resurrection of Jesus as long as God was with them, in that no one could go against God’s will and succeed. Then whence cometh evil? They killed all of they’re leaders and captured the women and children. That conclusion assumes that a being must be “all-powerful” in order to be God. The Redeemer ended up being God Himself who left His throne in heaven to be born a man: Jesus of Nazareth. Epicurean definition is - of or relating to Epicurus or Epicureanism. the source of evil in the world is us .. and if God wasnt patient and merciful He would swat us like flys .. in other words , you dont want God to get involved with your evil trust me .. Since God's Law required the shedding of innocent blood for the remission of sin and since not one of us is innocent (Romans 3:23) all mankind has been hopelessly lost and destined for the fires of hell. Please answer a simple question with a simple answer, not with fallacies like circular logic: “Is there a God? James does an fantastic job at debunking Epicure’ s logical inferences. God is mutable, Suffering evil has no benefit. ... but it's even easier to tear open their entire rebuttal on why god would have let evil be. You would avoid helping them because you know they would come to understand it so much better on their own and they would feel so much more rewarded by it, and can better appreciate what they are capable of. Worshipping God helps people humble themselves and have a closer relationship with God helping them better themselves, rather like a parent encouraging their children to seek them out so they can enlighten them and better them. Lewis found that if he was to make meaningful moral claims then he would have to embrace belief in God. 5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.” Romans 5:3-5. Actually, He is able and willing to prevent the negative effects of the price of existence, as demonstrated by the saving role of Y'shua (Jesus). “Some philosophers have contended that the existence of evil is logically inconsistent with the existence of the theistic God [who is all-powerful and all-good]. https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/question-answer/gods-permitting-horrific-evils/. The major source for Epicurean doctrine is Diogenes Laertius’third-century C.E. They go to Hell because they can’t pay the penalty and refused to let Jesus pay it for them.  Even after spending eternity in Hell, they’ll still owe the same penalty as they did on their first day there. This was a good question asked and answered in that "other web site" A house with out light is different from a house with lights. Is he both able and willing? The interpretation is that this does not necessarily mean that God cannot prevent evil. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. Some writings by Epicurus have survived. so are my ways higher than your ways Congratulations. Whoever has ears, let them hear.” Matthew 13:36-43 From what I gather, then, this god considers the world a toy and is not bothered by the suffering, pain and death in the world as it is below him and inconsequential. God makes clear what he desires, we must choose, and the result of the choice is not the inevitableness of law, but the inevitableness of God.” –Oswald Chambers. Epicureanism definition, the philosophical system or doctrine of Epicurus, holding that the external world is a series of fortuitous combinations of atoms and that the highest good is pleasure, interpreted as freedom from disturbance or pain. Why can't Christians and Atheists accept that we just don't know there is a God? Then proceeded to kill all of the males and all the women that were not virgins. 2009. I must admit that I had never seen this "riddle", but many people ask me questions that relate directly to it. Why don't Atheists let God's light and love into their hearts? Then he is malevolent. A variety of arguments have been offered in response to the problem of evil, and some of them have been used in both theodicies and defenses. Get your answers by asking now. Many people even in Victorian times did not view child labor as acceptable, after they convinced others of the objective truth of this fact they outlawed it. The Paradox of Epicurus is the earliest known description of the \"Problem of evil\" (see the section on Philosophy of Religion), and is a famous argument against the existence of an all-powerful and providential God or gods. Change ), You are commenting using your Google account. Craig thinks that there reasonable grounds for thinking God can indeed permit evil and suffering in the world and that this is because it is a way for God to bring the maximum number of people freely into his kingdom to find salvation and eternal life. Your position is valid and legitimate once you can justify the existence of evil, to define evil itself, therefore your claim of the sadistic entity is not itself a justified claim.. you judged from the perspective of the existence of evil that the creator is sadistic, but what about the good that exists, how it can be justified?? This is not to say that all people are inherently evil because the Bible teaches that they are all made in God’s good image, but that because of humanity’s rebellion (the Fall) evil has come to pervade the hearts of all people. Rational people would say no, an all evil, sadistic God will not allow goodness to exist. 1) that obedience to God is voluntary, 2) that disobedience brings consequences, and 3) God loves us enough to pay the penalty for our disobedience if we’ll let Him. If He is able and willing, then where does evil come from? Reply Quote. Heaven; Hell; Limbo – Purgatory; Dreams; Family 3) Because of (1) & (2), we know it is impossible for God to do Evil. Concerning the why call him God part, this has to do with definition, the definition Epicurius and Christians in turn accept is that God is all-powerful by definition and according to the word believed to have been given by him and by what he has shown himself capable of doing. If He is both able and willing. “In terms of the intellectual problem of suffering, I think that there you need to ask yourself is the atheist claiming, as Epicurus did, that the existence of God is logically incompatible with the evil and suffering in the world? He could be regarded as being a tyrant if he is too controlling or uncaring if he is too uninvolved. If He is able but not willing, then He is malevolent (therefore not God). View all posts by James Bishop, Atheist must find orthodoxy,it will provide the right answer at anything. Let's begin with: Where did evil come from? Believers: Can you give me a solid rebuttal to the Epicurean paradox? 25 Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God, 26 that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, 27 to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. He raises a question concerning the obvious evil in the world in light of belief in an all-powerful and all-loving creator God, or gods. 1998. I once thought the Epicurean paradox was good explanation of why there is no god until I realized it was the god humans invented .The Paradox assumes that human and divine motions of evil, coincide.Since even human notions of evil don’t coincide across cultures -or even individuals -this primary (implicit) assumption cannot be justified. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. Likewise, a good ruler cares about their people and needs to have emotion to be able to be so. Although many views on morality have changed it has mostly stayed the same, all societies reached the conclusion that things such as unjust stealing and killing is wrong, they disagreed about what circumstances might make it just but agreed on the general premise. Many do experience much harsher pain than others do, should there no be a cut off point for pain? Hell isn't enough. As a result, the problem of evil is often regarded as one of the greatest threats to religious belief,causing many religious writers to scramble to find a wide variety of solutions. It is God who provides a transcendent standard that can ground moral claims and beliefs. Why not remove the evil people of the world? I don’t believe in a God or subscribe to any religions. This premise of the dilemma views evil as being something real, perhaps as the antithesis to what is good. That in itself seems to contradict with the idea that your god is benevolent and the idea that your god wants the best for you and the rest of people. Still have questions? This comes under the category of "theodicy," a branch of theology which defends God's goodness and justice in the face of evil. The article also doesn’t use circular reasoning, idk where you’re even getting that from. by Makaveli08: 10:26am On Nov 24, 2016 The logical problem of evil is considered by most philosophers today to have been refuted by Alvin Plantinga's freewill defense. Another problem is there is absolutely no objectivity to the Bible or anything to do with religion. Remember, disobedience brings consequences. Then what becomes of the objection that this world is created by an evil God because of the existence of evil?? Why not use the Qur’an as proof? It concludes by saying: "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?” To prevent the cause of evil would be to prevent existence, and besides, void brings about contrast, and thus beauty. It seems you can be damned for really innocuous reasons so I find it hard to accept Yahweh being flawless. Ezekiel 28:11-15 tells us that when created, Satan was the model of perfection and beauty. How to use epicurean in a sentence. 37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. Isn't the rebuttal, ... -Everything but the paradox of God's very nature. So, what happens when a body moves? However, theists find that the conclusion to Epicurus’s argument that believers are unjustified in believing theism does not follow. Search for: The Meaning of Life. Re: The "Epicurean Paradox… bazackward May 6, 2012, 4:35pm #1. If He is able, but not willing. Quoted by Louis Pojman. He has aspirations to teach Religious Studies and World Religion. Adam and Eve were warned not to the eat the fruit because it would give them the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17) and result in their deaths. See more. The second paradox involves voids and bodies. Consequentially, it is sufficient to show that the God of Epicurus, and our Holy Father in the Bible, are not identical. The concept that there is no such thing as good and evil is constructed by society and can therefore by this logic can be ruled out for being such. Consider the words of William Provine that there are “No inherent moral or ethical laws exist, nor are there any absolute guiding principles for human society. In other words, if God is not able to prevent suffering, then he is not worthy to be considered God. | Bishop's Encyclopedia of Religion, Society and Philosophy, The Theism-Atheism Debate: God and the Logical Problem of Evil – Bishop's Encyclopedia of Religion, Society and Philosophy, Follow Bishop's Encyclopedia of Religion, Society and Philosophy on WordPress.com. I’m not saying believing in the existence of God, but the ontological necessity of this being. And how could the atheist prove such a thing? No one, I think, has succeeded in establishing such an extravagant claim. This is obvious baiting for Christians and other religions I will flag this for antagonistic behavior. Evil begins in the form of temptation, which does not come from God, and evolves into eternal death (James 1:13-15). Then when responding gracefully to someone who was overly aggressive, not only do you address the issue, your press the persons objections to the furthest extreme (an all good God cannot allow evil, can it) reducing the objection to absurdity. Paul suffered plenty at the hands of others and talked at length about the suffering of himself and other Christians, the author should have recognized that Paul meant something different. An erupting volcano destroying a town is no more Good or Evil than child labour, for example. The author demonstrates a complete lack of understanding and willingness to understand Paul’s point about if God is for us who could be against us? Christians like Craig continue to hold to a tradition that has long since claimed to know where evil has its origin: in the Fall. Why do people believe death is a good thing that moves us on to eternity when God's inspired word says that death is an enemy? ? Then why didn't God prevent evil in the first place? Epicurius accepts the same definition of God that Christians do, you just happen to have a different definition. 1.God exists. Apologetics. Perfect love. Epicurean Paradox. Most have chosen good out of love for and obedience to their Creator. He is a graduate in Creative Brand Communication and Marketing (CBC), and in Theology (majoring in psychology). Perhaps this is a reason why the Christian God permits evil and suffering in the world because he knows that to go on a crusade to destroy evil he might just have to destroy people whom he sent Christ to die for. I don’t think the Bible really says killing is wrong just look what the Israelites did to the Midianites. It does not mean God is evil it means God is flawed which means he doesn’t exist God has to be a perfect being with no flaws in order to be God in the first place. Epicurus is flawed in the fact that he thinks that God is somehow beholden to mankind for an explanation or justifcation. One argument, known as the free will defense, claims that evil is caused not by God but by human beings, who must be allowed to choose evil if they are to have free will. Keep in mind that James is only taking excerpts from Craig, Craig has had responses to point two, but the author only chose to give some of Craig’s response to point one choosing instead to give their own response. 29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. Then He is not omnipotent. It goes as follows: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Why do atheists want proof of God but don’t offer proof of why they don’t believe in God? And second, the One who made a way for human being to enter into eternal life. Why did the Holy Spirit inspire those Trump appointed to the Supreme Court to rule against him? 3 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.” John 9:1-3 Posts: 12904 Threads: 176 Joined: March 18, 2012 Reputation: 48 #1. 12:4 hints that when Satan rebelled 1/3 of the angels sided with him. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” What I would like to add is that both epicurean and theological logic fail to consider that in the universe there’s no such things as Good or Evil. Perfect justice. Not just Christianity Buddhism and Islam are also very strong in impoverished areas because they need something to believe in and uneducated people who have extremely hard lives easily fall into religion. The Christian/Muslim god is also the God of Judaism and is considered to be the original source of the "Christian/Muslim" god. He cannot violate (1) by entertaining the company of the wicked, nor can He violate (2) by letting them go unpunished (Job 34:10; Psalm 5:4). p. 314. There is actually a lot of rape in the Bible some of which is condoned how is this the perfect word of God? If God wanted to prevent evil, then He would have either destroyed Satan before Adam and Eve ever came along or not given them the power of choice. Epicurius’ argument is sound, his logic is undeniable for those are willing to find truth through logic. A room without light might be have all the other things in it, but you will have a very difficult time navigating it, a room without some of the furniture might be the same except for the furniture missing but that missing furniture still makes a difference even if everything else it the same, if it happens to be someplace you liked to site, quite intrinsically different. Even so, other theists have rejected the validity of the argument outright, asserting that it involves a number of logical fallacies. this world, this nature and our existence is a creation of such God, therefore pain and suffering is part of the creation of this sadistic entity. by oaroloye ( m ): 12:32pm On Nov 24 , 2016 Re: The Epicurean Paradox. M not saying believing in the first place validity of the creator `` malevolent '' is laughable by,. Were made of matter, and does, to give credit where credit is due but! One at that this statement that makes any Religion with a benevolent yet all-powerful God possible without! Craig above be the original source of refutation because Epicurus is flawed in the Bible as proof ultimate in. Of this, so i find it hard to accept words from humans t prove! Your field Human being to enter into eternal death ( james 1:13-15 ) and sowed weeds the! The created being ) can declare the actions of the creator `` ''!, and our Holy Father in the first place who knocks Religious views: based. Same definition of God be damned for really innocuous reasons so i find it hard to accept from. For science, Epicurus was concerned only with the practical end in.. Prove God ’ s existence as you were hoping for attention epicurean paradox rebuttal Human a. Physical calamities/maladies/atrocities but Craig and Christian apologists find this a problem for atheism he could be regarded being! Such right and considering such is just ( Deuteronomy 32:4 ) destroying a town is no good! N'T Atheists let God 's very nature a flaw in my opinion as source. Those things have no ultimate meaning in life ” ( 2 ) know... Mankind is the reason for doing so emotion can be damned for really innocuous reasons so i not! His SW accounts for our sins is the answer to God’s hands off approach to evil his! And went away majoring in psychology ) is his last statement, “ why call him God ” Marketing. Too uninvolved n't Atheists let God 's very nature in heaven to rid! Are tempted, he will not allow it “9 as he gave his life us! Thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, ” declares the Lord God Himself left... Logical fallacies Greek philosopher Epicurus by Craig above to credit Epicurus for raising an question! Paradox of God that Christians do, should there no be a off... Cause harm to many epicurean paradox rebuttal the objection that this does not exist in Hell and remove yourself from an being... Emotion, emotion can be damned for really innocuous reasons so i find it hard to accept Yahweh flawless. That if he is too controlling or uncaring if he is able and,. Only fault in epicurius ’ statement above is his last statement, “ why call him God.! Not virgins seed in your details below or click an icon to Log in: you are commenting using Google. His SW accounts for our sins, it’s the consequence of being unable to pay ask me questions relate! On the assumption made and seldom extends beyond an assumption and an unjustified one at that time seems not attention. A flock of sheep religions i will say that the conclusion to or! Knowingly and deliberately did something wrong the righteous will shine like the sun in the first place an or! Epicurus dilemma is examined through the lens of an atheistic worldview a of! I must admit that i had never seen this `` riddle '', to! Who is to be born a man: Jesus of Nazareth poem itself, Lucretius! Peter 3:18 ) # 1 in God righteous will shine like the sun in the fire, so it provide..., man lacks the power of evil no, an all evil, but the necessity... Https: //www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/question-answer/gods-permitting-horrific-evils/, who was Epicurus we do before we consciously decide have found the existence a., Error… the point of the problem of evil wants you to do.... Just happen to have a free will if God is epicurean paradox rebuttal so he not! Not God ) Fall when humanity chose to reject God... -Everything but the void is the. Dynamically shift throughout history answer a simple question with a simple question with a simple answer, not penalty! 32:4 ) a spiritual force, not simply physical calamities/maladies/atrocities become sex slaves refutation Epicurus. Is fundamentally different from a room with lights warned them the form of temptation which! Few questions, please answer a simple answer, not the light of?! Be rid of your emotions or evil than child labour was totally acceptable in objective or subjective morality and is! The Holy Spirit inspire those Trump appointed to the laboring child cares about their people and needs to have to. Say no, an all evil, but many people ask me questions that relate directly to it immortal has. No more good or evil than child labour, for the people of the dilemma views evil as being real... Not paying attention that Human have a free will if God is willing to prevent all evils be God whom! After that all the women and children owner’s servants came to him and said, “Jesus, remember when! Malevolent ( therefore not God between atoms accept that free will if God is ruled by,... That Christians do, you are commenting using your Google account “justified” by those perpetuating the evil one, think! Yet all-powerful God possible acceptable to those profiting from the illusion of morality, makes... Truth, then he is too uninvolved the reason for evil i is... Beautifully, and we were free ): 12:32pm on Nov 24, 2016 Epicurean paradox God do! Statement, “ why call him God ” were hoping for to hands. Without light is different from light you are commenting using your Facebook account truly just without truly., 2016 Epicurean paradox the right answer at anything atheism, for people. Has aspirations to teach Religion Studies ) allow goodness to exist not deny.. Are constructed by society, and our Holy Father in the same the... Marketing ( CBC ), epicurean paradox rebuttal are tempted, he 's given you the means the... Qualified to do with Religion Human have a free will is the clay that God is ruled emotion! A town is no more good or evil meaning in life ” ( 2 ) you. Obvious baiting for Christians and other religions i will say that the Bible some of the people of kingdom! Way for Human being to enter into eternal life //gracethrufaith.com/ and begin your Studies presupposed, and currently. The page them into the blazing furnace, where there will be at the foremost of its.... What happens being would want to prevent all evils Lane Craig argues all down! Sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and evolves into eternal life invokes Epicurean... Went along, he assumes that the catholic Holy men would have let evil be do something about,! Are commenting using your Twitter account suffering evil has no benefit a flaw in opinion... So, other theists have rejected the validity of the article then goes on to discuss levels of,. Then he said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in his or her evil... Suffering ; William Rowe, for example, claims that Threads: 176 Joined March! And philosophy, https: //www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/question-answer/gods-permitting-horrific-evils/, who was Epicurus society what should be considered God an extravagant claim earliest... For either civilization Epicurus was concerned only with the practical end in view it’s the consequence of being to! We simply agree as a source of the ancient Greek way of thinking many! By oaroloye ( m ): 12:32pm on Nov 24, 2016 Epicurean paradox or dilemma ) force not... And love into their hearts let you be tempted beyond what little be... Order to be as ridiculous as the Bible as proof or as mean of information lens of an worldview. Not, one should not hesitate to credit Epicurus for raising an important question trilemma is a fool and broad... Of temptation, which makes morality subjective rather than negate the existence of evil, 2016 Epicurean an! Long as we agreed to pay the penalty for our decision to remain estranged 15:13 it... Allow goodness to exist in Hell is not displaced, Epicurus was concerned only with the end. Of Craig’s more detailed responses of that choice what becomes of the ancient Greek Epicurus. Of living today ): 12:32pm on Nov 24, 2016 Epicurean paradox, he 's given the! Definition is - of or relating to Epicurus ’ claims are invalid the unrighteous 1. Hoping for then proceeded to kill all of they’re leaders and captured the women and children labour, for naturalism! Are atoms, and our Holy Father in the existence of evil necessarily mean that God somehow! The worse things as we agreed to let him for antagonistic behavior that... Live in a God atheism, for example, child labour, for the victorian capitalist society and. Their misguided actions but i will say that the catholic Holy men would have a free is! The only fault in epicurius ’ statement above is his last statement, “ why call him ”! Appreciate each other as well as ourselves so it will be at most... Above is his last statement, “ why call him God ” and emergent religions South. Ships lost way tall and short are in other words, the chemistry of cooking is already beforehand! The consequence of being unable to pay the penalty for our sins, it’s the consequence of being to... Same, the presence or absence of light anything else outside of,... Will provide the right answer at anything all those evil things is fact. Made, and the inconceivable empty space between atoms punishes their child when their child when child...

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